Full Tilt Poker Sued Over Bot Use



The legal woes keep piling up for Full Tilt Poker, as the site now has a third lawsuit on its hands to go along with pending legal action from former pro Clonie Gowen and former employee Jason “JDN” Newitt.  Unlike the previous two cases, this suit comes from a customer rather than someone with inside knowledge of how the company works.

Heads-up online poker player Lary “pokergirl z” Kennedy and former Full Tilt customer Greg Omotoy filed their complaint on October 1st and levied accusations of fraud, libel, slander, false advertising, and racketeering against the popular online poker room.

Kennedy and Omotoy sought legal action after Full Tilt Poker confiscated more than $80,000 spread across the two players’ accounts because the site believed they were using bots, which is against its Terms of Service.  Shortly after her account was frozen in 2007, Kennedy posted her story on the popular TwoPlusTwo online poker forum seeking advice.  As the thread developed, news broke that Kennedy was multi-accounting, logging into Full Tilt on Omotoy’s account in an attempt to elicit more action at the heads-up tables.

The official complaint against Full Tilt alleges that a player known on the site as “TheComplainer” accused Kennedy of being a bot and suggests that his good standing with Full Tilt resulted in her being booted off the site.  TheComplainer, known among the TwoPlusTwo community as “Crazy Mike” and “Gatorade,” had a reputation as an anti-bot poker crusader and accused several other players of being bots as well.

In addition to seeking restitution and damages in relation to the confiscated funds, the lawsuit accuses the site of a number of other crimes and makes insinuations about the inner workings of its management team.  The suit is filed against the companies Full Tilt Poker and Tiltware as well as several individual members of Team Full Tilt.  The list of individuals named in the claim includes Howard Lederer, Raymond Bitar, Phil Gordon, Chris Ferguson, Andy Bloch, Perry Friedman, Erick Lindgren, Erik Seidel, Phil Ivey, Patrik Antonius, John Juanda, Gus Hansen, Mike “The Mouth” Matusow, and Allen Cunningham.

Within the claim, Kennedy and Otomy’s representation explains that Full Tilt originally consisted of two separate companies, Tiltware and Vert Enterprises.  It suggests that, despite Full Tilt’s assertion that they are separate entities operating out of California and St. Kitts and Nevis, respectively, the two companies are one in the same and even suggests that Vert Enterprises actually ran an office out of Los Angeles for over two years.  When describing the roles of the individuals named in the suit, the claim also argues that Bitar, Lederer, and Ferguson all play major executive positions in the company.

The suit accuses Ferguson and Bloch of creating bots to populate slow cash game tables on the site and increase the profits of the company.  The bot accusation and the contention that Team Full Tilt and Full Tilt Red Pros are playing with “house money” are used in the claim to depict Full Tilt as an online casino rather than cardroom and, as such, in violation of California state law as well as online gaming laws in several other states.

These illegal online gambling charges are joined by accusations of fraud, unfair competition, and false advertising.  The complaint also invokes the Racketeer-Influenced Corrupt Organization Act (RICO), which has historically been used to levy criminal charges against organized crime syndicates, but is used in private suits as well in part because it enables plaintiffs to receive triple the amount of damages.  Kennedy and Otomy’s claim suggests that Full Tilt has willfully committed hundreds of illegal gambling transactions that fall under RICO’s definition of racketeering.

Full Tilt has yet to issue a response to any of the charges issued in this most recent suit or in the pending litigation involving Newitt and Gowen.  While the latter two are remaining mum about their cases against the company, Kennedy has taken her story to the Web and posting the complaint against Full Tilt on her official pokergirl website.

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53 Comments

Don

That explain why they don’t use anti-bot solution


moose

My comment regarding the law suit against Full Tilt and the usage of BOTs.

If Full Tilt confiscated your money for using BOTs, yes by all means sue the pants off of them. Because this is discrimination. Full Tilt uses software to develop the cards, and software to deliver the cards to the tables. Therefore why can’t I use software to play at their tables against their software. When do they get the power to dictate only they can uses their crooked software.

Sue them they are crooked anyway.


jayt

Dear Moose,
You would not be playing “against their software”. you would be playing bots against other players. And as a player, I would not play at a site that knowingly allowed this. Its like playing a live game against someone sitting there with hand analysis software.

To call that discrimination is like calling it discrimination if a boxing commissioner fined you for letting a boxer put horseshoes in his gloves.


tc2

u must be craZY TO RISK REAL MONEY


JOHNC

I used to play on this site and I think it should be banned and all profits given back to players who lost money. It is amost impossible to believe that they are playing a legit game on these
sites with all of the bad beats that happen during a game. I play in person a lot and don’t see as many bad beats in a 6-8 session as I would see in a 9 player tourney that lasted only
45 minutes. Just crazy, what looked like the very worst play possible would get rewarded for being stupid, no skill just plain stupid move, unless you had inside knowledge of the next cards of course. then it would be easy to play and steal from people without the same insiders knowledge. This site smells like, looks like it, so please don’t taste it because I’m sure it’s gonna taste just like it.


mike

obviously bots should be illegal since the purpose of poker is to test your skills against others. the site itself actually would make more money if there were bots all over the place since they play far more hands than any human, HOWEVER, I agree with jayt, customer satisfaction clearly comes first and I would never play on a site that allowed use of bots. Furthermore moose, the Full tilt software is designed to allow the best quality of game for their players, keep our money safe and enforce the rules where they can. For the record, I have played real money games on FTP for over a year and I still have no complaints. Good luck at the tables everyone!


Brian G.

Anyone who plays online is an idiot. JohnC above is not kidding about seeing more bad beats in an hour online than you see live in many hours. If you’ll notice, and I am sure you have, it seems too perfect that on the turn you hit a hand that you can in no way fold and on the river comes the only card in the deck that could have beat you.

Besides, I want to see what the guy or girl taking my money looks like, so I can tell them of when they stayed in with 10-3 offsuit and call and all-in with nothing on the flop to only go runner-runner to beat me. (This, of course, never happens live, but it might someday)


Justin D

U guy’s aren’t the sharpest tools in the box! Online poker seems rigged to u because u play way more hands online then u do in a live setting. In a hour session u might see almost double the amount of hands then at a brick and mortar game! Calm down take a deep breathe and quit playing junk that can be rivered constantly!


Phil Woods

Justin you are obviously a stooge for Full Tilt. How many times do you see 2 players with a full house each competing for the “all-in” prize only to see that the player with the higher trips take the booty and wipes the other player out of the game. If it was a one-off I would accept that it was “chance”. It is not chance and anyone who plays full tilt seriously thinking they can win over the medium term is dreaming. Play only for fun because 98% of players donate to the FT Coffers, just like a casino take.

The big games with the Ivey’s, Ledera’s and Antonius etc are with “play money”!! They are NOT real!!!!


Phil Woods

I think you are correct!!


Bill

I’ve been playing poker online at various sites (Bodog, Pacific Poker, Poker Room, Everest, UB, Full Tilt, Stars, etc. etc.) for nearly six years and have been a small, but consistent, winner in cash games, SNGs, and tournaments.

It takes time to learn the game and become a winner (or even to become a break-even player). Part of being a winner is understanding that you can get your money in good and that sometimes you WILL lose to horrendous beats, and sometimes these things will happen A LOT in a short period of time (this is called “variance”). I know it sucks when you are two-outered in a cash game or deep in a tourney, but that’s poker. It happens to everyone, even the best in the world. The difference between the winners and the whiners is that the winners know how to handle loss and overcome tilt.

You guys that think “they had to know what cards were coming” aren’t thinking about what is the most likely situation: your opponent is just terrible! Isn’t that what you want when you play poker? When terrible beats happen to you, just know that you put your chips in with the best hand and be content in knowing you made the best play you could. There’s nothing more you can do other than keep playing or quitting altogether.

Also, many of you conspiracy theorists fail to remember the times when YOU sucked out on someone and issued a bad beat. It has to do with selective memory. I’ve probably hit 10-15 royal and straight flushes and 50+ quads in my time online and sometimes even won big with them, but do I specifically remember those hands? No. But I can tell you the suits of every card on the board when my full house got cracked by a two-outer on the river three years ago for a chunk of change (actual hand, and it was a LIVE game, not online!).

I used to be a online-poker-is-rigged theorist a few years ago when I was a young buck, but later realized how absurd it would be for a highly successful online poker room to scam their customers. As soon as news is confirmed about any cheating they would lose almost all their business immediately.

It’s hard to fathom “the long run” in poker, but once you gain more experience and try to wrap your head around the factor of variance, it helps soften the blow of bad beats. Just suck it up, study the game, play as many hands as you can for experience, and TRY TO BE LESS RESULTS-ORIENTED! I can’t stress that last line enough.


Jydemand

Bill +1


Bargeguy

I agree with Bill. The successful sites are absolutely printing money-60 and now 90 hands an hour for Rush Poker. The rake they are getting with 100,000 players on line has to be in the millions or maybe 10′s of millions every month.

They would be totally nuts not to run a clean game if for no other reason than their own self peservation. Look at what happened to Ultimate Bet- they got crippled by the scandal. Do you think Full Tilt or Poker Stars have any reason to scam us players out of a few thousand here and there when they’ve got such a fabulous franchise?

It sure would be interesting to get a look at their numbers, that’s why some of these lawsuits will be so closely followed-they may be forced to show the numbers. I’d bet that will be a real eye opener if they do.


QuePasaNonGrata

I might suggest that given the uncertainties of truly favorable online poker legislation in the US, how can you be sure that the short sightedness of the respective businesses don’t play more of a factor? Using the analogy of a traditional american vs. japanese business practice, often times americans do not look at the long term value in business. By comparison, the japanese business model looks 5+ years ahead. Wouldn’t you invest in a company given inside info, especially if you were isolated from potential losses, knowing that the company could crash & burn in a short term? Perhaps others could offer additional insight.

This is not the only pertinent analogy, nor do I think that variance is the only explanation. I have had enough bad beats live, and yes, I have played over 120K hands online in the past year, but I do see some of the ugliest scenario’s I’ve ever seen in my 4 years of play. I have myself cashed in many online MTTs & Sit n Gos for over 8k, but have also lost an almost equal amount to (1) the donkey plays of others, (2) SICK bad beats, and definitely (3) to my own poor playing skills on occasion given the criteria for online play. You live in a bubble if you believe there is no reason for a legitimate “cash cow” of a business to manipulate the situation by (1) increasing rake from juicing the cards or by (2) paying off noobies to get them hooked (we are talking about addictive behaviors here after all). Watch the news since the inception of TV? Any human foibles you’ve noticed in recent history? Enron? Bernard Madoff? We’re talking human nature above all else. Just as players are likely to try to manipulate the system, aren’t the owners likely to get a little extra where they can if the fall out can be controlled or minimized? Wag the Dog? That little extra can translate into tremendous +EV. Greed & the desire for power are strong motivators.

Another issue is the encryption & potential for software favoring the organization. Even current levels of encryption are beatable from what I’ve read. When the encryption could potentially be increased, would that not benefit everyone? Also, the supposed 3rd party expert sign off on the PStars algorithms by BMM Int. & Cigital? (an aside: I have noticed PStars efforts in the legitimacy battle go up considerably in the past year. Legit or not? Who knows.)

As for the suggestion that it would be too involved or inherently flawed to implement code that would create or change certain criteria in a card game that could ultimately benefit the overseer, I find this naive given the sophistication of our modern software & hardware. More oversight/regulation is a must I would think. This is all supposition of course, I am no expert mind you, and the potential additional computer resources associated w/ the additional encryption might be an issue for all I know, but given our incredible availability of information and our great thinkers out there, why so little discussion/moderation of empirical data between the “variance” nay sayers & the “conspiracy” hounds?

Now I realize that due to the popularity and visibility of poker/online poker, there is much face to save. I know Absolute & UB both took a big hit, but haven’t they made somewhat of a comeback? Hired a high profile liaison/online poker pro for damage control?

I think a dialogue above all else is important. Just as we live in a supposedly “free” society (speaking as a US citizen) we also need to participate in our government for it to truly work. Something that is sadly missing more often than not in many venues. Having said that, our poker rooms are far better off for having pundits & conspiracy theorists abound. Open discussion/speculation is good.

Please share your thoughts. Debate is good. Ignorance breeds lies.


QuePasaNonGrata

BTW Bill. Your point of selective memory is spot on. A similar pertinent thought: David Sklansky put it best when he said that a player who just lost a bunch of money but is up on the week/month often feels worse than someone who is behind but just won a fair amount. In retrospect, just wish when I had got it in good that I didn’t have as much invested in the pot, comparatively speaking, as when I sucked out. I’d like to see your stats/hear your thoughts on that.

BTW, I do have a fledgling Blog dedicated to starting out w/ a small bankroll called “Discipline + $50″ if anyone is interested. There are other links to some exceptional sites & blogs posted as well (including Ansky’s site).


ps0054

I personally do not believe that online poker is rigged — I believe — in fact, I know — I’ve done better online than live. That said, I would like to see a “bad beat comparison” in terms of percentage of hands where bad beats occurred online compared to the same calculation for live games. Obviously a definition of a bad beat must be set (perhaps 80% or better to win after the turn, or something like that) — I think that would put to rest any accusations of online poker being rigged (or not, I suppose, if the percentages are a lot higher for online).

The poker site gets paid the same money no matter who wins — the rake is the rake is the rake. Other than possibly “cold-decking” every hand to ensure maximum rake per hand, I can’t really see any benefit to rigging the game.

QuePasaNonGrata, I believe, said that greed would motivate the sites to rig their games. I believe greed works just the opposite — that’s what keeps the sites honest — a truly greedy man would never kill the goose that laid the golden egg — poker players are the geese and the rake is the golden egg. For a poker site to risk losing its player base for a small extra percentage points profit would be sheer lunacy!


QuePasaNonGrata

ps0054 – A correct assumption & summation w/ respect to greed, all things being equal. I was merely writing in a stream of consciousness & also attempting to promote a dialogue/debate, not support one outlook. My main curiosity has to do with the effect of the US legal stance w/ online poker. Pardon if this was not a more cohesive “devil’s advocate” effort. Your quality response is what I was hoping to see. As for live vs. online play, I’ve always been good at the visual/psychology of poker as far as picking out the player types, etc. Otherwise, I am fortunate to have a rather good physical presence at a table as well and have consistently done well in that venue.


jlap

regarding online poker remember you are playing against a software program its fun but dont give up your day job
if your lucky you can win but as in all software chips if you hit the right combination you win if you get the right
cards in poker you can win In slots if the chip gives the right combination you win But remember Casinos DO NOT
LOSE MONEY The skill in poker is simple 1) know when to fold 2) know when to raise the rest is luck you
cant win against A – A with 7 – 3 unless you bluff or get lucky on the draw if the pro’s were so skilled would they
not be in the last 3 of the world series of poker each year instead of playing in tounaments (and getting paid) or
writing books on how to win, or doing commentary on poker shows Play poker for fun, like roulette you may hit
the right number have fun but dont blow the mortgage


DGS

LOL, all you guys that complain about online poker being rigged are funny. I quit my career 2 years ago now to play online poker full time, i win consistently always have always will because there are sooooo many idiot fish online only to willing to steam and give you their chips / cash. The bottom line here is becoming a winning poker player takes a hell of a lot of time, patience, discipline and motivation. So if your losing playing online stop and consider for a second that maybe you are just a plain bad player.. there are alot of consistent winners online so what are they all just lucky? LOL donkaments


play4rent

I agree with the naysayers, as opposed to the conspiracy hounds. Having studied probability and playing a *lot* of games both online and with simulators I see lots of “bad beats.” Enron, Madoff and others are the exception not the rule. Don’t ever forget it. There is too much at risk by FT greats like Jesus Ferguson writing a silly little bot to increase volume.

There will also always be UB’s but they won’t be first or second.

However, while FT and PS do not have enough incentive to run bots, they have plenty of incentive to look the other way and not do everything they can to prevent bots from running on their sites. To me, that is the real issue. Check out some bot sites and read about how PS and FT allow their code to be “botted” by allowing too much info to be available to a skilled programmer. Info like field names/column names in their databases, etc. That is the real story.


pokerhater

poker sites such as full tilt manipulates the cards dealt to get maximum action. This speeds up game play, and more games = more rake = more money.

Ever notice how big stacks win the the worst hands when games go on too long.


MalvaWare

Here’s my €0.02.
QUE seems to have it right. It’s a BUSINESS. For all of you who run a business out there, (OWN IT, not as an employee!) you know what your customers want and you cater to the money, to make money.
I can FULLY GUARANTEE all online sites know how their money flows in/out and where it flows from/to (it’s a business, remember?). They can CONTROL that flow to MAXIMIZE their profits. That’s Business 101. If you don’t believe that, well… I don’t know what else to say.
One of the above comments mentioned UB/AP “superuser” scandal. Seems that wasn’t enough to scare off those from the site (nevermind it didn’t close the site!). What are you people thinking playing on these sites? I understand addiction well…it’s what fuels these sites.
People put money into a “game” that has these *** KNOWN*** pitfalls: superusers, colluders/collaborators, hackers, bots, chip-dumpers,”random generator”, offshore “regulation”, bucket-shop sites, ultra-donks, Moneymaker-wannabes. WTF are you people thinking?!?!?!? Fun? Just send your money to me instead….. The number of winners on these sites is VASTLY dwarfed by the number of losers. SAD.
How do I start one of these sites?

THE WHOLE SYSTEM IS FAVORED FOR THE OWNERS, ***NOT YOU***!!!!!

YMMV


straitshooter

this is to the idiot Bill who said the site would go out of business if they got caught cheating. the site has been running for years and they have made millions of dollars over that time, so if they get caught now that they are being investigated what can we do? they have the money and its all offshore, so they made their money and they are rich, you think they care if they go out of business? get fucking real you fucking moron prop for these online poker sites, they are all crooks that have not been caught, only difference is that they are smart because they have math whizzes like Ferguson and Bloch creating software.


straitshooter

to ps0054, the rake is the rake is the rake plus all the buy-ins you idiot if the site is using bots and other means to cheat, you think we are all ignorant?stop posting comments if you think that we are to believe an unregulated industry is on the up and up. rich companies breed corruption, that is why the rich is 1% of the population and all the suckers out ther are handing over their money in hopes of one day becoming rich, keep dreaming!


potmo

There’s a lot of smart people out there with databases who do sophisticated statistical analysis on sites like this. When something is fishy they catch it. This is how UB/absolute poker got caught with bots/superusers. It is because of greed that the sucsessful sites DON’T rig their sites. It’s absurd to contend that an unbelievable beat indicates a rigged site. I’ve been involved in four hands where quads got beat — all in brick and mortar play. As far as customers using bottins software, I personally would LOVE to see that. People assume that bots automatically would beat all players, but in reality it would be good for the game both because more games would be going and because a majority of the bots wouldn’t be any good. The only reason the sites try to stop them is due to donked paranoia


jimmyhat

You see, the thing is, players that are consistant losers will, without a doubt, claim that sites are rigged. Sometimes it feels that way, but then I remind myself that I have cashed out around 15k more than I have deposited. To sum it…online poker at the major sites ( ft, ub, ps) is safe. If you disagree, consider yourself a losing player and brush up on your skills.


jpenn

For all of you that support the idea that there isn’t bias encoded in the software to encourage action and to keep bad players coming back: you are naive. Yes, without doing so, the company would still be very profitable, but never underestimate how greedy people can be.


Anonymous

mike and justin are ft employees


ap3828

Full tilt isn’t rigged. It’s built the same way a casino is. Yes they will try to get your money, but if you have enough of a BRAIN then you can avoid this. You can play using logic. Fold when your hand sucks, and fold when someone at the table starts to act like slime. And play with your extra cash, not your life savings. Maybe then you won’t be so angry towards the idea of a casino, online or in person. Plain and simple. If you want to win, you can win.


Scott Zimmermann D.A.

This story was published nearly a year ago. How about an update? Was FullTilt using bots or not?


Earl Burton

Hello Scott,

A couple of months ago, there was a dismissal in the case. However, there wasn’t any decision on the bot issue. Here’s the article:

http://www.pokernewsdaily.com/full-tilt-poker-wins-dismissal-on-court-cases-in-california-and-kentucky-10609/

Thanks for asking!

Earl


Garry

I agree Full Tilt is fishy! What are the odds of getting the same exact starting hand 3 times in a row, multiple times during the same game? I’m saying same suit, same cards. Add to that the stand poker odds don’t apply to Full Tilt. Mind you established poker odds were created by computers using thousands of hands, so they should apply to online gaming. But they don’t. It’s no secret, the best starting hands tend to lose at Full Tilt! And as for their independent game audits, well audits are only as good as the auditors checking them. If the auditors aren’t poker players themselves, how do they know what to look for? Because apparently getting the same exact starting hand back to back doesn’t seem to raise any red flags, lol. Kh,2c / Kh,2c / Kh,2c… Not once, but multiple times during same game, come on now!


hahah

just a thought, i have read all comments, some saying sites are rigged some saying there rich enough not to rigg..
if you think about it, i have played many cash tables online and have come across some hands and bad beats that seriously not come down to u lucky, the odds of that river and 3 players holding those hands and for the flop to hit is just plain ridiculous, gambling is about odds, i no a bad player will say that sites are rigged if they lose there money due to a bad beat, but at the end of the day, buisness is buisness.. e.g register now and get £50000 free!!!..
…………………………………….when you depsoit a min of £25000 lol..
lotto, scratch cards, fruit machiones, there all desined to take more money than they pay out or they simply would not be worth building or manifacturing.. same applies for a poker site, they make money from buy-ins and advertising yes, but mostly from rake, would it not make sence to inteligently better the odds of making bigger pots for more rake?… they say that its a random generator that deals the cards.. this might be true, but like the £5000 misdirected ad.. the hole cards might infact be delt after the comunity cards have been selected no?… who no’s, poker is gambling like any other gambling site, unless played live we will never realy no how it works…


juda

full tilt is using bots and allowing others to use them as well. You put in your money and you will never get it back, they let you win some hands, or you can get lucky until the bots analyze your play, but after they figure your style out you cannot win. You can never beat a bot in the long run. This is how that site is run. People have proof.


musicman

Rigged is a strong word, programmed for action is a better description. The deals are not 100 % random , anything that uses a software code can not be considered truly random. The “You see more hands on line” excuse for defending the deals is old and lame . The amount of runner runner bad beats and river suck outs is proportional higher on line then live. This whole industry needs serious regulation , then maybe we can have a fair game.
Anyone who thinks the sites are intentionally rigged to benefit one player over another is wrong , on the opposite end anyone who thinks you get a fair game on line is also wrong . Bottom line the only fair game you will find is live play.
Once Hr2667 passes sites like Full Tilt and Poker Stars will have to compete with Casinos . Also HR 2667 could put sites like Full Tilt and P Stars out of business in the US because technically these sites have been in violation of US law.
Where do you think more people will wind up playing ?? Goodbye Full Tilt and P Stars.


Rysk29

Full Tilt Poker is NOT real poker.. i am a good poker player, not the best but a good poker player, and i see the same thing there is NO way for all those monster hands to be in the mix it doesnt go down that way when its face to face with actual people.. and if you think that online poker isnt a scam just to take your money, then my firend you are either woeking 4 them or extremely retarted, either its 2 or 3 monster hands on a 9 top or you get beat out by a kicker thats fishy as it gets, they are using an algorithm in there software that leaves everything to chance not like real poker where skill is involved.. plus there are bots or people that work 4 them that can see all the whole cards and cards that come out.. PEOPLE PLAYING FOR REAL MONEY WOULDNT CALL ALL IN WITH A 4J OFFSUIT and of course i had AA they had 4J off, guess who won.. people might say thats just 1 hand but it is funny i have played thousands of hands on full tilt and always getting beat when the odds are in my fsvor and i have a bad beat, but strangly out of all the thousands of hands i have played, i have never beat anyone else with a bad beat go figure… to all who think its a fair game go ahead and keep playing and you will lose everything or not even get paid!! and THATS REAL AS IT GETS FOLKS


1bigsippy

Well this is over a year old has anything happened?


Dude-Play

I was a dealer in VEGAS for 15 years.. I have seen more bad beats from players going all in on the turn with 2 cards short of a low strait flush.. I had flopped a full house.. I got beat by a royal in another tournament by a Royal.. Sevaral times I have been on a clear path to cash and all the sudden a new player comes to table or they move me to a player that goes all in with nothing over and over,, They take out many good player playing good cards… THIS DOSE NOT HAPPEN ON REAL LIVE POKER!!!! Sure you have bad beats but not 7-8 in a day sometimes several on one table!!! I have dealt millions of real poker hands.. Trust me FULL TILT POKER IS USING BOTS!!!!! It is a several million dollar SCAM!!!!! They use bots no doubt about it.. Don’t play for real money or don’t play at all.. This game is a disgrace to the game of poker for them to allow this to go on!!!! They could make plenty money from the sie just using the rake.. DON”T PLAY U ALL !!!! DEMAND BETTER!!! So you can really test your skills and not get beat by a Bot or a program that is not secure!!!!!!


Anonymous

i have noticed on full tilt.
the more hands you win , the overall better cards hole cards you are dealt.
kinda like rolling a snowball down a hill effect.


Scott

I will be filing suit against FTP.


mark

I think the problem is in the fact that these sites use statistics for the whole system rather then for just a game. What i mean is that your chances of getting a pair of Aces are X. Well the site instead of running the stats on only the hands played at the your table(like in real life); Run the stats on the hands played across the whole system. This makes teh Aces pop up ever second in every table.


Anonymous

if you want to win on full tilt just go all in with the worst hands possible, youll probably win 80% of the time.

68 off suit is my favorite hand and i havent lost with it yet


The Truth

Full Tilt POKER IS A SCAM FULL STOP
Say what you want but this is the truth

Its uses bots to speed up tournament = sorter tournament plus more tournament played in a day = more rake + les payouts

Creates action flop for bigger pot = more rake

When you deposit you will win 100% to the value of your deposit after that you well lose it all
And you will not win a thing until you deposit again = deposit $300 win $300 = 100%

Withdraw scam = when you withdraw your user name is put in a list whats this list dose
Is it gives you worse odds on wining so if you wore 50% 50% to win a hand it’s more like 15% 85%

Odds mean noting at Full Tilt

Y do you think it’s call Full Tilt made by Tilt ware it puts you on tilt so you lose more money

Plus the software is flowed and you can beat it whit a bit of Know How
Trust me I know what I am talking about


The Real Truth

Funny how its only the players that lose money online who rave about this conspiracy but the truth is this ….

Full Tilt Ban bots because its BAD for business. People don’t play on sites if they doubt their integrity hence there is less money to be raked in total (that’s how they make their money, by taking a small percentage of each pot).

I have played online poker for nearly 10 years on nearly every major site there is. In my opinion Full Tilt is in fact the best and here is why …

There are more players online than Party Poker for example (by a massive margin). There are also more games available and more variety. You just don’t have to wait for action … EVER … its there you just go take it.

As for the ‘BAD BEATS’ and ‘rigged decks’ … its bullshit plain and simple. I have played quite literally millions of hands on Full Tilt and yeah sure i’ve suffered some horrendous beats but not once and not now do I consider them to be anything other than bad luck.

People that moan about bad luck are the people that should not play the game. Bad luck is part of poker, equally so is good luck. If you can’t accept this then you shouldn’t play because you’re the sort of person that will just tilt off their BR, in fact, bank roll management or even stack management, hand odds, pot odds, implied odds, discipline, patience, risk versus reward etc etc …. are all things that these people have yet to even come across, let alone truly understand.

The point is, idiots will sometimes hit their miracle 2 outers, but as a GOOD poker player you will have already accounted for this by the way that you play the rest of your game and manage your assets.

IT HAPPENS, ITS NOT RIGGED, THERE IS NO CONSPIRACY …. ITS CALLED POKER!

Happy New Year!


lol at the truth

@The Real Truth: You must work for them, lol. Obviously after playing on the site for a couple months anyone with a BRAIN can tell their software is setup to keep the games moving along QUICKLY, to do this they setup bad (hands that a pro would play, but in the end will lose no matter what), another thing you will see at full tilt poker is half the table with pocket pairs, constantly. One good peice of advice, NEVER call an all in when you have a pocket pair, because on FullTilt, there will ALWAYS be 1 or 4 others with pocket pairs too. Now in the laws of random, this is expected from time to time, but WAIT! EVERY GAME? WOW, seems like everything we know about random has changed. I think its time we ALL sue FullTilt, its a slap in our face letting these fools rip us off. When will there be a legit poker site? When its not controlled by greedy men located offshore.

On top of that, they will scam you when you cash out. They will not give you your money as how you requested, then will send you a wire instead, and say sorry for the inconvinance, this wire comes with a wire fee (more money for their partner … probably also owned by them). This is definitly against the law. Lets start a class action lawsuit.


Thats what every one needs to do start a class Action

For all the one’s that have Complaints about losing,or if they think they have been ripped off.START a Class Action suit ,and post it on line so every one will join and get a chance of getting their money back and then some!And Stop Complaining do something about it.


so and so

i am having other problems with them. they have been lying to me in emails about my withdrawals and i still havent received them for almost half a year now. I have also realized that suck outs happen very often and it seems like my hot streaks and downswings are controlled..but how would FT benefit off of this? When it comes to the games, they get paid for only rake and thats it. It would take them lots of time and pointless effort to do this and the only thing that comes about this is mad customers. So why would they do this??


told u so

If the software can be manipulated, so can “dummy” players that are rigged to win the majority of tourneys only to filter the money to the owners of these sites. See headlines April 15 of who was arrested and charged…when these guys rollover to get a reduced sentence, we will all see how enormous this issue is and who is involved. I am talking about the owners of the sites, processing systems and banks, programmers, and poker pros who knew and profitted. I am a poker player of 10 years and am HAPPY the feds finally will uncover a corrupt system from top to bottom. I hope all involved go to jail for taking money to unknowing poker players across the world!


F T R Gotcha

RIGGED. I said this online after noticing the “hot seat” on a table. It was a certain seat that won most of the hands over time. Sure it could be that they were the better player but I suspected that they were getting software help. Getting that card that defied the odds not once not twice but multiple times. If that seems odd perhaps not. When that player left the table I sat down in that seat. I started getting hands that defied the odds. Strange perhaps but it appeared to be RIGGED. Was there reason to do so the answer seemed to me to be no. I called the site RIGGED. After all I took a beat of having lost with a straight flush. Yeah I had the low end. What is the odds on having a straight flush and losing? Okay maybe I am foolish to think a straight flush should win. After all I am playing for play chips. I never put a dime in because as a person who holds a computer science AS degree, Magna Cum Laude what could I possibly know about programming? It is possible to run a fair game and it ABSOLUTELY IS possible to RIG a winner. You can track a player and can let them win some then zap them with a BAD BEAT. A random card generator can be exactly that – RANDOM but it can also be altered to place that specific card that a player needs to win the pot. Who’s to say that this player isn’t working for or with the gaming site to drain the accounts. Now it could be that the site is fair and random. I used to start the day with 1000 play chips and some days build to over 750,000 chips. Each day I gave them back and started at zero. Then one day as I was playing I called the site RIGGED and soon after I was called a lousy player and other terms you know DONK, fish etc. Well I didn’t care. I concluded my experiment never again able to amass over 100,000 play chips. Strangely I had a increase of BAD BEATS. RIGGED I say. Experiment concluded.


F T R Gotcha

PS I do quite well at face to face poker. Sure bad beats happen but on a coumputer site GREED is a strong motivator. A fair site would make money after all the odds favor the house. Rake on.


reflexions73@yahoo.com

Those who say FTP isn’t rigged and claim they win bc they’re good player can’t get out of the way of their ego or work for the site or aren’t paying attention to how the software manipulates the game. The software can be designed to do anything the owner wants. The levels of manipulation of each player and the game itself by the software can be programmed anyway they want, a form of cheating. And if site bots are employed for the owner’s benefit, the cheating level has taken another massive step up for profits. No independent verification of the software has ever been undertaken or allowed. Why? Why do you think?

There is nothing about the dealer that even approaches randomness.
Six-sigma statistic methods have no bearing on what cards are dealt. I’m a better than average player; the methods I use to win at FTP bear no resemblance to how I play at a card table. Because of the non-random manipulated deal normal poker strategy and likelihood/stats cannot be used in the long term. You must alter how you play based on experience with their game manipulation by dealer, and they have programmed that to also change so as not to appear obvious or constant, using different schemes.

I have seen too much evidence of board cards hitting 2 or more players in a hand perfectly designed to keep them in, make and call raises thinking they’re the one that got the hit and so now have best hand, etc. You know what that does for the operators, right? Rake = pot% ! When all stay in to the showdown, I look at our hole cards and see that 4th & 5th street cards are too peculiar too often, showing how we players were manipulated to stay, call or raise.

Anyone who has a basic knowledge of six-sigma and how it is used relating to random chance probably has their own anecdotes to rival these, just a few of many glaring examples I’ve observed and sometimes tracked.
In 3 years of FTP play, 10,000′s of hands, AK hole cards, I’ve seen A or K flop exactly 4 times when I stayed! Unbelievable!! Of those hands I’ve folded, I’ve seen 100s of flops with A or K !! Rigged, no doubt in my mind.
One session I played I tracked each hand with a 2 in hole. Played 530 hands, 2 in hole 178 times. Remember, 2s are 7% of deck! This is so outside the probability of random it’s comical. And site wants me to believe it’s legit?
I’ll say this — the whole concept of statistical 6-sigma is used to analyze when something IS OUTSIDE of normally occurring random events.
When collected data IS outside of that bell curve, SOMETHING IS AFFECTING the process — that is a proven fact! Are there really any doubters here who don’t know what is doing the affecting?


Slimgoody40

Well i’m waiting on ultimate bet to pay me for my badbeat winnings. A class action suit does seem about right at this point cause they are not speaking up or tring to make any payments to us usa players,but yet they over seas still making money. At first, i thought the DOJ. froze their accounts and the accounts of the other 2 sites. But after reading the DOJ action taken againg the sites,they clearly stated the didn’t freeze any bank accounts or prevent the sites from making payouts. So that means the sites them selves Decided they are not going to pay us.


donater5615

where is my money I the powes to be are prepared to shut it down then why have they not contacted the players to release there money back in our accts they dont havvvvve acomplaint against me just fulltilt or was it a huge money grab from ordinary people ?? tell me where my legal money is I WANT IT RETURNED TO ME


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